An interview with Kelsey McKinney on the power of gossip

The "You Didn't Hear This From Me" author on whisper networks, celebrity narratives, and social truth

If you love a good, juicy story, Normal Gossip likely already has a place in your podcast lineup. Co-created and (until recently) hosted by Kelsey McKinney, the show shares wildly entertaining, real-life gossip sent in by listeners with a different guest each episode, who is regaled by the tale. (If you haven’t listened yet, start with this episode with guest Samin Nosrat—it involves a farmer’s market and a surprise.)

Now, McKinney’s taken her expertise on all things gossip and written a book that’s just as entertaining as her podcast, titled You Didn’t Hear This From Me: (Mostly) True Notes About Gossip. It’s a sharp and engaging exploration of the nature of gossip and the role it plays within our culture and our relationships.

The book asks a deceptively complex question: what role does gossip actually play in our lives? The book invites the reader to think a bit more deeply and explore the gray moral area in which gossip resides. Can gossip be used for good, as in the case of whisper networks and #MeToo? Can gossip be used for harm? Is delivering good gossip just a way to gain social currency? Is it fair game to gossip about celebrities, and where do we draw the line? Is gossiping a sin, as McKinney was taught in the evangelical church growing up?

Who else thinks about this moment all the time? (Golden Globes 2024)

It’s an entertaining, illuminating read dotted with McKinney’s personal anecdotes, philosophical musings, and a bounty of references from the current internet-centric culture in which we live. McKinney grounds her analysis in internet-era case studies — from West Elm Caleb to DeuxMoi — alongside older cultural touchstones like Mean Girls. All this is balanced by questioning the messy, ever-shifting relationship between truth and storytelling. Read on for my Q&A with the author (plus her 2 downtime recs), below.

Q&A with Author Kelsey McKinney

(Photo by Ashley Gellman)

You wrote an incredible fiction debut, God Spare the Girls, and now you’ve shifted into nonfiction. What was that transition like?

Kelsey: No one has asked me that question yet, which is crazy! In some ways, nonfiction was easier because I’m a trained journalist and a blogger, so essays are my comfort zone. But it was also harder because gossip is such a broad topic—I had to keep track of so much research and make sure the book didn’t feel repetitive. With fiction, you can build tension through a character’s arc. With this, I had to think: how do I structure this so each essay feels distinct and builds toward something?

One of my favorite sections of the book is where you compare the nature of gossip in the original Mean Girls to the new version. Can you explain why the change to the Burn Book matters so much?

Kelsey: Yes! In the 2004 Mean Girls, the Burn Book is full of teenage gossip, but one of the entries exposes a coach making out with students—which makes people take it seriously. In the new version, they removed that, which completely defangs it. Why would you take a book of petty gossip seriously if there’s nothing real in it? The original forces you to take teen girls seriously—it acknowledges that gossip can be malicious but also a way for girls to protect each other. And I think that’s an important distinction.

The Shitty Media Men spreadsheet you reference in the book (a public database one woman created to warn other women) is another example of how gossip functions as both a shield and a weapon. Do you think something like that would exist today?

Kelsey: That’s complicated. The Shitty Media Men list wasn’t well-received at the time—places like BuzzFeed called it defamation. At the height of #MeToo, there was this belief that making information public would lead to justice. But now, we’ve seen men go to trial and still not face consequences. So I think people are more hesitant. The lesson we’ve learned is that the only real protection comes from each other—whisper networks, private warnings—not from the legal system or the media.

This ties into the current Justin Baldoni and Blake Lively situation. In that case, Baldoni seemed to be using gossip as both a weapon and a shield, shaping his own narrative while trying to discredit Lively’s. Meanwhile, Lively took the legal route, perhaps because she saw what happened with #MeToo and realized that whisper networks alone wouldn’t be enough. How do you see that playing out?

Kelsey: That case is such a perfect example of how gossip can be manipulated. Baldoni’s team has been using old rumors about Lively to muddy the waters, which is strategic but also telling—it shows how easily people can be swayed by past gossip, even when it’s unrelated to the actual issue at hand. It also highlights how much control celebrities now have over their own narratives, and how public opinion can be shaped through carefully leaked information.

You also write about “West Elm Caleb” and how social media has normalized recording and exposing strangers for content. How do you think that phenomenon will evolve?

Kelsey: It’s only getting worse. Social media rewards engagement, and the fastest way to get engagement is by stirring up drama. People justify it by saying, ‘Well, they’re a public figure now,’ but that line is so blurry. The West Elm Caleb situation is a great example—he was just a guy dating in New York, but TikTok turned him into a villain. And now, we’re seeing even more of that with everyday people being put under scrutiny for minor infractions.

I thought one of the book’s most fascinating ideas is how people obsess over “what’s true.” Even with fiction, people ask, but which parts actually happened to you?! Why do you think we do that?

Kelsey: I think people are unsettled by the idea that something totally made up can make them feel something real. We see this with Taylor Swift, too—fans dissect her lyrics, trying to “solve” them. But art isn’t a math problem. Nothing comes from nothing, but the facts aren’t the point. The truth is in the emotional resonance.

That’s such a great way to put it. Thank you so much, Kelsey!

📕 Grab your copy of You Didn’t Hear This From Me, out now. You can also follow Kelsey on Instagram.

Note: This interview has been edited for clarity and conciseness.

Two good things Kelsey swears by…

• “I bought this hand cream from a pharmacy in Paris. I got it because my cuticles were so dry, and I love it. It actually absorbs instead of just sitting on top of your skin.”

• “You need a fish spatula! I don’t even cook that much fish, but it’s the best kitchen tool—it’s thin and long, so you can pick up a cookie and it won’t break apart. I recently bought a second one and now I feel like the definition of wealth in 2025 is owning multiple fish spatulas.”

---